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Written by TheShinji on August 17 2008
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^ do not read this if you're easily offended by the suggestion that the bible isn't real. In this case, grow a pair/l2freewill.

I think it's easy to say, avatar aside, those of you who know me could look at the posts in that link and see who was me right off the bat. That's not really the point of this blog, but I just want to show that atheist =/= i hate religion and it's followers.

Dawn Marie is a catholic. A pretty strong willed one too. At some point I might end up converting for her (provided I find enough faith to do so.) She says she loves me that much that she could turn her back on the god she believes in to be with me. I'm not comfortable with that, really. Namely because I can see the good that catholicism has had on her life, for the most part. In the cases where it's caused problems it hasn't been the catholic religion that caused her problems - it was the people that followed it.

I've considering the problem of religion and what it does to the world lately based on a combination of the above thought process, and because of a programme on british TV called ''make me a christian'' It basically takes a group of people who are, for some reason or another, considered to be 'sinning' by the principles laid out by the bible. There's this one guy, who, while simply trying to be a 'rebel' for the sake of it and refusing to try it and see what happens, is pointing out various flaws with the priests involved in being their 'mentors' for this programme - Namely that they are being told simply that they should live a certain way because the bible says so, as opposed to explaining how or why it could improve their lives. The guy I mention as trying to be a rebel may well be childish in the way he makes his points (i'm sure you can find the first 2 episodes online somewhere) but he does nontheless have one.

Christianity, like the other major religions, does have it's flaws. Namely, I believe these flaws are human influence. Why do I say this?

Does any bible ever specifically use the words that you should go out and KILL whoever doesn't share the ideology? Does any bible, or the deities described within, ever show itself/themselves to humans in order to have them declare war on each other?

I'm not claiming to have read any of them word for word - hell, i've barely read any passages from them, but i'm betting you'd be hard pushed to find anything specific that urges that. As I pointed out on the blog on myspace, christians are indoctrinated into believing that they should be out converting anyone who doesn't share their ideology - this is a part of what makes it seem so obnoxious.

Surely though, in this day and age, atheists and religious people really should be able to make peace and live with each other? The idea of god as an all knowing, all powerful being gives rise to the idea that, in creating a being such as humanity and granting it free will would give rise to a section of whatever society developed that DIDN'T follow him. Maybe he didn't like it, but if he designed us and left that in, then it suggests he tolerates it. This is why his followers are rewarded with an afterlife in heaven, and others are not - namely, those who don't follow him will die all the same. That they do not go to heaven doesn't intrinsically mean they would have earned a place in hell. Maybe it was interpreted this way by countless revisions of the bible, maybe he really did feel that way - who knows? But seriously, would an omniscient being be arrogant enough to assume that humanity would bow to his will and be obedient little pups because he said to do so? If someone like me can easily reach that conclusion, then I don't think anyone who knew everything would not.

By now, you might be wondering what the point of this blog is. That's all good, and to be expected. As yet i've really not stated anything much of personal opinion. I'd understand if this was taken to be an attack against christianity - far from it, i'm merely stating my opinion on a part of what I think is wrong with religion in general. If you read my posts on the myspace blog, then you'll see that I am actually defending religion there.

Honestly, I don't think i really can set a definite conclusion to this. I want to, but it's merely a bunch of thoughts that followed on in a logical train.

Maybe it's naive of me in this day and age, but i guess you could say i'm asking why we can't all just grow the fuck up and get along. Humanity is stifling itself by choosing to fight to prove who is superior rather than getting together and working out all the shit we need to.

Shit, look at georgia. I don't know everything that's going on there, granted. But i read one british newspaper on saturday morning that had a headline on the front page saying that Vladmir putin threatened to nuke poland if they stepped in to help georgia, or allowed some us missile base there or something. What does that achieve? half the planet nukes each other in response. yay, we're all fucked because a few retards had control of nuclear weapons.

Maybe there's no point in posting this kind of thing in a blog. But whatever. I'm not interested in changing the whole world. I don't have that kind of potential. What i believe in though, as can be seen, is treating everyone fairly. If someone is a prick to you, then treat them like a prick. They earned it. Just don't go too far, or you'll only make yourself look bad. Try to be even handed and as kind as you can. You never know, a random act of kindness can change someone's life forever

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It's really the peoples' interpretation of the bible that is... incorrect, or rather not how it was meant to be interpreted. It's something to be read and reflected upon, not to be taken seriously (word for word), or to be totally revoked. Though some of the things may be infuriating (god's idea of man, mostly), it's best to just think about it. I recommend you watch this, Brian. This is a clip from a movie called "The Adventures of Mark Twain" created in 1985. It's a compilation of some of Mark Twain's last phylosophical works. Some were uncompleted, as I believe this one was. It's called "The Mysterious Stranger". He's painting a picture of what God's vision of mankind is, according to the bible. I love this, mind you, I think it's total genius. link
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Hmm...I was really debating with my self if I was going to respond to this blog, but I guess I have nothing better to do. Alright then, where to start...how most people view religion today is not based on the religion themselves, but adaptions and experiences that other people tell them. This means that even if you come to the decision that the the religion itself is "flawed", you only think this because you have heard what others have to say about it. It is true that what they say can be right, but how you interpret it is different. This can be seen simply from comparing Brian to Dawn Marie, they have both know what Roman Catholic is about, but they have different thoughts about it because of how they learned about it. Anyway, I go through all of that to sum up this little intro. Whatever you hear, think through it logically before you give it any credibility. That is true for what I am about to say now.

Okay, now I do not admit to be the most religious person ever, but I have done a lot of research and work so to better understand the world we live it. I have read both the Bible and read many books about it, but at the same time I have also read a lot about Atheism, so I will try not to be too biased. Anyway, I guess I should start answering some of your questions. Also this should go without saying, but since we both have different views you need to be willing to "accept" some things so that I can describe them the way I think the Bible describes them.

Firstly, let me answer your question about what the Bible says about converting others. When Jesus came back from the dead and is about to ascend into heaven (points to the last line in the second paragraph) in Matthew, he tells his disciples to go out to the nations to convert them. Why, you may ask? So that they can be "cleansed of sin" and be allowed into heaven. Alright, I know that you're thinking that this doesn't make sense. So let me explain what you call the "flaw" of the bible, humanity.By the way, here is one of the things you're going to have to accept if you want to continue on with my logic, God is deity, not a human. You call relate to him with emotions like jealously and hate, even love, but you cannot compare these emotions with the ones you feel yourself. Deity and humanity are two different things, God can relate to humans because "he" is all knowing (because he is God), but humans cannot relate to God because they do not know (they are human, not God).

Alright, if you're still reading I guess that means I gave you some reason to think that God is God and Man is Man. Now to understand why God created Man and gave him the ability to think and choose. Genesis 1:27 says that God created man in his own image. So does that mean that humans are gods? Well is a pot a potter, no its not, but it does prove that when God created man he did something different. He created something he loved and instead of forcing it to bow down to him, he gave man the choice of free will. Of course, he knew that free will was going to make man sin thus separating him from his creation, but he already had a plan before the foundations of the world. You see, its not that God hates humans or wants them to burn in hell because man doesn't bow down to him. Rather, it is man that hates God and doesn't want to "give up his free will" that makes it so man cannot be with God. He doesn't tolerate sin, but he wants the person to have as many chances to "repent". To wrap this up, God loved man, so he gave him free will. Man chose to deny God, but God still loves man so he wants them to convert so man can be saved. I hope this at least gives you something to think about when it comes to free will and humanity vs God.

Back to the first question, people (even followers of the religion) have skewed their views on Christianity. That is why you see shows like "Make me a Christian", the commission that Jesus gave to his believers has become different from the original message that is "You should love thy neighbor" and "Love thy enemy", not "Force Christianity so far down their throat that you choke them or make Tv shows about it".

Ha ha, satire aside...I am starting to run out of room to type so I should wrap this up. Human understanding cannot understand deity, thus it chooses to reject it. People even mock the fact that religious believers believe in "faith" instead of fact, when in reality there is a very thin line between what is real and what is opinion. Each person has "faith" in something wither they want to accept it or not, that is where conflict comes into place and people begin to fight their beliefs against one another. This will not change, this is human nature. By asking for it to change, you are merely falling on deaf ears. Change cannot occur unless conflict happens, thus this change will never occur. I could have a lot more to say about that, but I think I'm about out so if you want to ask me anything or have questions for me get me on msn Brian and I'll see if we can come up with an answer. I'm glad you shared your thoughts, so don't feel like I'm attacking you either, but I want to entice thought for you.

P.S.: I know that I was very religious in this post, but I was focusing more on answering your questions within the religion then within the conflict between Christianity and Atheism.

To the above poster. You're contradicting yourself there. Once in the text you said, that "You see, its not that God hates humans or wants them to burn in hell because man doesn't bow down to him". Then why, why does God FORCE humans to believe in him?! At first, he created them with free will, afterwards forcing humans to believe in him?And by forcing, i mean threatening them with the holy flames of hell. wth? I am not in ANY way dissing any religion at all. it just seems weird to me. I mean, God could care less if people believe in him or not. How the hell does it affect him?

God to human: "I give you free will, but if you don't believe in me, you'll end up like a burned crisp".

Edit.: And no, I'm not religious, neither am I an atheist. I'm one-of-a-kind.
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Zgtaf3 said: "To the above poster. You're contradicting yourself there. Once in the text you said, that "You see, its not that God hates humans or wants them to burn in hell because man doesn't bow down to him". Then why, why does God FORCE humans to believe in him?! At first, he created them with free will, afterwards forcing humans to believe in him?And by forcing, i mean threatening them with the holy flames of hell. wth? I am not in ANY way dissing any religion at all. it just seems weird to me. I mean, God could care less if people believe in him or not. How the hell does it affect him?

God to human: "I give you free will, but if you don't believe in me, you'll end up like a burned crisp".

Edit.: And no, I'm not religious, neither am I an atheist. I'm one-of-a-kind."



Actually...I never contradicted myself, but rather I was explaining how the situation is. For example, if you kill someone then you will be sent to jail for murder. You chose to kill the person (out of free will), so being sent to jail is what you deserve. This is the idea of why sin is and why there is hell, it isn't as much of a punishment for not believing as it is a justification of your "sins". Their is a balance here, that if you are given a choice then you will take the consequence of your choice. If God is "holy" and man is "evil", then there must be something that can join them together. That is where the Bible explains that God created a plan for redemption for humanities sins. It is not a contradiction, but a paradox.

Light said: "
Zgtaf3 said: "To the above poster. You're contradicting yourself there. Once in the text you said, that "You see, its not that God hates humans or wants them to burn in hell because man doesn't bow down to him". Then why, why does God FORCE humans to believe in him?! At first, he created them with free will, afterwards forcing humans to believe in him?And by forcing, i mean threatening them with the holy flames of hell. wth? I am not in ANY way dissing any religion at all. it just seems weird to me. I mean, God could care less if people believe in him or not. How the hell does it affect him?

God to human: "I give you free will, but if you don't believe in me, you'll end up like a burned crisp".

Edit.: And no, I'm not religious, neither am I an atheist. I'm one-of-a-kind."



Actually...I never contradicted myself, but rather I was explaining how the situation is. For example, if you kill someone then you will be sent to jail for murder. You chose to kill the person (out of free will), so being sent to jail is what you deserve. This is the idea of why sin is and why there is hell, it isn't as much of a punishment for not believing as it is a justification of your "sins". Their is a balance here, that if you are given a choice then you will take the consequence of your choice. If God is "holy" and man is "evil", then there must be something that can join them together. That is where the Bible explains that God created a plan for redemption for humanities sins. It is not a contradiction, but a paradox."


Okay, then what do you say to this scenario:

James Lauren, (a name i just made up) has never sinned in his entire life. And he never believed in God. What will happen to him then? According to the bible that is. Let's just pretend he lived a totally sinless life, and did NOTHING (according to the bible) wrong. I believe that God would punish him anyway seeing as he didn't believe in him, EVEN THOUGH he didn't do anything against the bible. What do you call that?
Oh, and by the way, sorry for using caps, I just felt i had to use it to further declare my point

Edit.: This discussion is turning out interesting.
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Zgtaf3 said: "
Light said: "
Zgtaf3 said: "To the above poster. You're contradicting yourself there. Once in the text you said, that "You see, its not that God hates humans or wants them to burn in hell because man doesn't bow down to him". Then why, why does God FORCE humans to believe in him?! At first, he created them with free will, afterwards forcing humans to believe in him?And by forcing, i mean threatening them with the holy flames of hell. wth? I am not in ANY way dissing any religion at all. it just seems weird to me. I mean, God could care less if people believe in him or not. How the hell does it affect him?

God to human: "I give you free will, but if you don't believe in me, you'll end up like a burned crisp".

Edit.: And no, I'm not religious, neither am I an atheist. I'm one-of-a-kind."



Actually...I never contradicted myself, but rather I was explaining how the situation is. For example, if you kill someone then you will be sent to jail for murder. You chose to kill the person (out of free will), so being sent to jail is what you deserve. This is the idea of why sin is and why there is hell, it isn't as much of a punishment for not believing as it is a justification of your "sins". Their is a balance here, that if you are given a choice then you will take the consequence of your choice. If God is "holy" and man is "evil", then there must be something that can join them together. That is where the Bible explains that God created a plan for redemption for humanities sins. It is not a contradiction, but a paradox."


Okay, then what do you say to this scenario:

James Lauren, (a name i just made up) has never sinned in his entire life. And he never believed in God. What will happen to him then? According to the bible that is. Let's just pretend he lived a totally sinless life, and did NOTHING (according to the bible) wrong. I believe that God would punish him anyway seeing as he didn't believe in him, EVEN THOUGH he didn't do anything against the bible. What do you call that?
Oh, and by the way, sorry for using caps, I just felt i had to use it to further declare my point

Edit.: This discussion is turning out interesting."


Well by the Bibles standards, this is an impossible scenario. Rom 3:23 says that "All have sinned". So basically this it is impossible for anyone that is born from Man to not sin. You could say that this is "unfair" because man is condemned from birth, but that is human nature. Rom 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men". This is like asking the question: "What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?". You don't know because it is impossible because no force (or one force if you believe in God) is unstoppable and nothing is immovable (once again, unless you believe in God). You can believe what ever you want about the situation, but it doesn't change the truth that it will never happen, by the Bible's standards of course.

Wow, long responses. I'm only 15 so I pretty much lol@religion. I mean srsly, people used to go off fighting @ war because they hate each other's god[s] and practices...and I forgot this one religion, but if you confess that you killed someone, it'll be cleared if you asked for forgiveness? o_O
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